Comments on Cute Little Blog: Judaism & Christianity

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Kiwi,Yes, we, the Christians, are the older, and m...

2006-03-01T09:18:00.000-06:00

Kiwi,
Yes, we, the Christians, are the older, and mainline Jewish sect, compared to the Rabbinics and their three or four divisions. The only older would be the Falashah, if they still exist as they were in Ethiopia, who reject all but haTorah,and sacrifice under "every spreading tree and on every hill" which the prophets forbid them to do.

We aren't followers of "paulism", no such animal, and we do remain static in our beliefs, from the apostolic period to the present.

Oh, and the bit about "not acceptable to 95% of Jews", apart from being a caudal statistic, simply isn't true. 4/5 of Jews (at least) became followers of Messiah in the first two-three centuries, so it is the Rabbinics who are unacceptable (as Jewish religion, NOT as Jews, which they ARE acceptable as!) to Jews.

Kiwi--To first order.In the same way that the sage...

2006-02-28T07:56:00.000-06:00

Kiwi--

To first order.

In the same way that the sages expanded Judaism that encompassed the sacrificial cult and extended it beyond the Temple, Paul took a small messianic sect of the first century and extended it beyond it's initial boundary (needing to be Jews).

Since that time, there has been development in both religions; neither stagnated in the second century.

I haven't read all the comments to your post, so I...

2006-02-28T07:02:00.000-06:00

I haven't read all the comments to your post, so I apologize if I am repeating what has been said and I'll keep it short.

The main theolgocial differences between Christainity and Judaism are, IMO: a. Jews do not believe God ever came to earth as a man. This is contrary to the whole concept of abstract monotheism, and seems to be a theological step "backward" toward idolatry, in that it attempts to limit and define God as a person; and b. Jews do not believe that one person can atone for the sins of another.
Nice blog.

If modern Christianity is really Paulism, what wou...

2006-02-27T19:34:00.000-06:00

If modern Christianity is really Paulism, what would the other forms of Christianity be?

Two items:First, if the Mechon-Mamre version of th...

2006-02-27T18:17:00.000-06:00

Two items:
First, if the Mechon-Mamre version of the 1917 JPS translation has issues, try it here instead.

Second, as to sacrifice and the Temple, there are several places in the Tanakh (Hebrew Bible) that make comments about this issue. There are books of the Prophets that come from the period after the destruction of the first Temple, and before the building of the second Temple. Rabbinic Judaism* (the antecedent of what is practiced by Jews today) replaced the Temple cult once there was no Temple, but it had been in existence for a while before that event (how long is subject to debate based on dogma, and could be 400 years to 1300 years).

Avot d'Rabbi Natan (a rabbinic text) brings a proof-text from Hosea and links it to the destruction of the Temple, and the lack of the opportunity to perform sacrifices for atonement. Hosea 6:6 (1917 JPS translation): "For I desire mercy, and not sacrifice, and the knowledge of God rather than burnt-offerings."

* An aside: as a first order approximation the Judaism practiced today should be more accurately called Rabbinic Judaism, just as the Christianity practiced today should be called Paulism.

I've decided to chime in here.

2006-02-26T12:15:00.000-06:00

I've decided to chime in here.

some rabbis met at Yavneh and invented a new Judai...

2006-02-24T20:15:00.000-06:00

some rabbis met at Yavneh and invented a new Judaism based upon good works to atone for sins... From them came the cHasid, the Orthodox, Conservative and Reform sects.

Are these two connected? If not, I'm confused who 'them' is.

We are older, and stand in truer continuity to Second Temple Judaism than they.

Who's we? Christians?

One other interesting little tidbit. At the time o...

2006-02-24T14:10:00.000-06:00

One other interesting little tidbit. At the time of the Census under Octavian, there were 5 million Jews. Three hundred years later, there were one million. There had been no holocaust, no genocide. What happened? At least 4 out of 5 Jews followed Messiah.

feh. Christianity is the second-oldest sect of Jud...

2006-02-24T14:08:00.000-06:00

feh. Christianity is the second-oldest sect of Judaism in practice. The oldest being the decendants of the exiles to Upper Egypt at the time of the Assyrian and Babylonian captivities.

About a generation later, after the destruction of haHekel be'Yerushalayim, some rabbis met at Yavneh and invented a new Judaism based upon good works to atone for sins, rather than upon the Temple sacrifice, which was no longer possible (The Ethiopian Jews sacrificed on every hilltop and under every spreading tree until quite recently)

From them came the cHasid, the Orthodox, Conservative and Reform sects.

We are older, and stand in truer continuity to Second Temple Judaism than they.

FWIW.

What requires one to be a Jew? This topic is cover...

2006-02-23T11:39:00.000-06:00

What requires one to be a Jew? This topic is covered somewhat near the end of the comments here.

I didn't really understand your comment about corp...

2006-02-23T00:46:00.000-06:00

I didn't really understand your comment about corporations.

It seems obvious to me that when you slaughter an animal, you kill it before you start hacking it apart. Corporations aren't known for being humane or reasonable, so it's not surprising that meat processing factories dismember live creatures. Kinda sick, IMO.

I never said Christianity is hooey.

Of course you didn't. But it seems the general feeling among Jews in this discussion, and I take no offense at that. We use the old definition of 'tolerance' around here, not the new one.

I guess it's a good idea to have genetic testing in general

I was only being hypothetical. We're not losing any sleep over that; we have much more urgent problems to lose sleep over.

Referring to the possibility of Jews becoming Gentiles, what's required to be defined as Jewish? I understand there are a few who don't even circumcise anymore, which makes them *way* different from the MO types I'm becoming familiar with.

I didn't really understand your comment about corp...

2006-02-22T10:26:00.000-06:00

I didn't really understand your comment about corporations.

I never said Christianity is hooey.

I guess it's a good idea to have genetic testing in general, but based on costs, you probably want to have some statistical indicator that it's worth it.

You did pretty much answer my questions. So God ga...

2006-02-22T01:26:00.000-06:00

You did pretty much answer my questions.

So God gave the written law, and also told Moses what it meant, to some extent that's unknown. Then the rabbis added some stricter rules to make sure. Right?

It's possible that Muslims consider us the same as we consider Jews. I don't know, but good point. Still, I'm not Muslim, and from my point of view Islam is hooey, just as from your point of view Christianity is hooey. All in perspective, huh? ;o)

I didn't know that about the meat thing. I'm not very familiar with the Noachide laws, but I vaguely remember them being pretty reasonable, obvious rules. Of course, corporations aren't exactly known for commonsense reasonable behavior.

I didn't know that about the Law of Return. I wonder if Jews who convert out, generations later, still know they're genetically Jewish. It would become important if they married another genetic Jew. Speaking of which, my grandfather was genetically Jewish, though he was adopted, so if my husband had Jewish genes back there somewhere, we could have a kid with Tay Sachs, maybe. That would be a Bad Surprise. But what are the odds? :oP

Quick comments which certainly won't adequately ad...

2006-02-22T00:50:00.000-06:00

Quick comments which certainly won't adequately address your questions:

The oral law was indeed given along with the written law to Moses. The extent of what was given is the subject of debate.

I'll try to give an example as I type here, exhausted. Hopefully more sober minds can determine if this is accurate. The written Torah says that we can't boil a kid in its mother's milk, three times. The oral law comes and says that these three instances refer to three prohibitions: cooking a mixture of milk and meat, eating a mixture of milk and meat, and deriving benefit from a mixture of milk and meat (e.g., selling somebody a cheeseburger). If you break one of these, you are breaking a Torah law.

The "meat" we're talking about here are permitted mammals. At some point, the rabbis needed to make a "fence" around this law, to ensure it wasn't broken, so they included fowl as well. If you eat a turkey cheeseburger, you're breaking a rabbinic law (if you're Jewish, of course).

I'm just using this as an example, so I don't really want to go into other issues that arise from such an example, but just so nobody from the Jewish side of the aisle tackles me, I want to mention that in practical terms of observance there should be no difference. We follow the rules of the rabbis just as we do those of the Torah. My point was to illustrate that there is indeed an oral law in Judaism that does not itself come from the rabbis.

Interesting point about making room for Judaism. I imagine Islam feels the same way about it and Christianity. As far as Christians following the Noahide laws, I don't think there'd necessarily be any conflict in doing both, but I doubt that many people are careful about eating meat that comes from a part of an animal that was severed after the animal was officially dead. My understanding is that most slaughter houses get right to it once the animal has been stunned.

(A Chabad rabbi's wife in San Francisco told me that a group of Noachides she knows told her that they only eat in kosher meat for this reason.)

Unlike "Diff'rent Strokes," Judaism isn't all about the genes. Anyone can convert to Judaism, of course. When it comes to converting out, a Jew is still considered Jewish according to Jewish law. His children, however, are not considered Jewish and would need to convert to Judaism if they wished to be considered Jewish from the perspective of Jewish law. Sure, they should get themselves tested for Tay Sachs before they get pregnant, but that's not the point here. And, yes, the Nazis considered anyone with a Jewish grandparent to be Jewish, but I for one am not about to let Hitler define for me who is a Jew (or anyone/anything else other than Jewish law, anyway). It should be noted, however, that Israel's Law of Return defines a Jew like this - and in terms of defense that's a good parallel, in my opinion.

As for God and man, David Bowie puts his faith in both. That's good enough for me. Saw that boy in concert once and, baby, he can sing!

Whoa, Ralphie, thanks for weighing in. (very heavi...

2006-02-22T00:02:00.000-06:00

Whoa, Ralphie, thanks for weighing in. (very heavily! ;o) )

I'm a little confused about the Oral Law. Was this something God gave to Moses? I always thought the rabbis came up with all that. Was any of it in the Torah? Because there's a lot more detailed laws in the Torah than just the Ten Commandments.

When I said Christianity makes room for Judaism, I meant that we believe at one time Judaism/the Tanach was all of God's revealed truth, while all other religions are a bunch of hooey invented by humans. (And FWIW, I think Christians do follow the Noachide laws?)

It seems you're saying that some people with Jewish genes are not actually Jewish because they haven't practiced Judaism for many generations. But such people weren't exempt from the Holocaust, and they can still get that horrible obscure genetic disease only Jews can get, and they may be persecuted if they appear Jewish. Isn't this kinda like when black people accuse other black people of "acting white"?

Ralphie, maybe you could hop over to Shira's and help us out with the question of whether Judaism believes in a separation between God and man?

Quoted: "This presupposes that it is known that J...

2006-02-21T10:55:00.000-06:00

Quoted: "This presupposes that it is known that Jesus was *not* the Messiah, or that the Messiah is known not to be an incarnation of God. I would suggest that this option is validly subject to debate."

Not by Jews!

(End Quote)

I'm not saying that Jews accept that it's open to debate; Christians don't accept it as open to debate either. I'm suggesting that the truth is one or the other, and the arguments should be able to be sensibly made by both sides. Either Jesus was the Messiah, or He wasn't. There should be evidence to go either way.

As for the argument about the virgin birth, I've heard that gone over both ways. This is a case of multiple potential meanings of a given word (common in Hebrew). A synopsis of the "virgin" argument can be found at:

http://www.christiancourier.com/notes/virginProphecy.htm

I'm not endorsing the tone of the language they use, but the argument is the standard one.

For the counter-point, which goes so far as to deny that the Isaiah passage is even related to the Messiah:

http://www.infidels.org/library/magazines/tsr/1993/2/2virgi93.html

Have at it.

From my limited attention span during my Islam 101...

2006-02-20T23:45:00.000-06:00

From my limited attention span during my Islam 101 course in college about a million years ago, between the professor cursing "Zionists" and non-Shi'ite Muslims, I think I caught the idea that Islam also considers itself a continuation of the biblical religion - first the Jews got it wrong, then the Christians, and now the Muslims have taken up the mantle. They believe Moses was a great prophet, the Jesus was a great prophet, and, of course, Muhammed tops them all (or is at least their equal). I don't know that any one is any closer to another than the other (is that even a sentence?).

As for the whole "Jewish Christian" thing - I think we're playing a bit with semantics here. Is a person who's born a Jew (which is not to say he is of the Jewish "race" - that's so 1920s) and who believes in Jesus as the Messiah/God still a Jew? Of course. In fact, even if he officially converts to Christianity, by Jewish law he is still considered a Jew. Clearly, he is taking a concrete step to distance himself from the Jewish community, to de facto denounce Judaism. Those who do not convert, who call themselves Jewish Christians, might not in their own minds be doing such distancing. But, as far as the Jewish community is concerned, they are kidding themselves. Because what PT is talking about, I think, is that there is no such thing as a Jewish Christianity. You can say, Ralph, but the very founders of Christianity were Jewish! To which I would say, exactly. And it's not Judaism that they perpetuated (I would also say, please call me "Ralphie." I didn't take four years of Latin so you could drop the "i.e.")

And it's "Jewish Christianity" that we in the Jewish community have a real problem with. Partially because, yes, there are those organizations that really do use it as a sham, regardless of whether their congregants consider themselved authentically Jewish or not. To these leaders, once you are saved by accepting Jesus, it doesn't really matter that you still light candles on Friday night. And to the Jewish community, that very lighting, when done in the name of Jesus, rings fraudulent, again, regardless of intent. What does the Jewish community consider a Jewish Christian? Deluded at best and a fraud at worst. What does Jewish law consider him? Legally a Jew who is breaking the law. The crime? Idol worship. Now, don't go get in a tizzy. The real translation for what is usually called "idol worship" is "foreign/strange worship" - to a Jew, that's what worshipping Jesus is. To a Christian, Jewish law considers it, well, kosher.

The Karaite thing could come in here as well, because what's happening there is a rejection of the Oral Law. A rabbi who will remain nameless once told me a secret. Shh! He said - the Torah is not a Jewish book (horror!). What makes Judaism Jewish is its interpretation of the written Torah, the written Law, through its oral law (the bedrock of which was handed to Moses along with the written one). The classic example of this is, Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy." (Exodus 19:9) Nice commandment. One of the Big Ten, you know. But, um, how are we supposed to do that, again? That's where the oral law comes in - the details and the like.

The Karaites, like the Christians, reject the Oral Torah. But they don't reject an oral tradition or law of their own - they couldn't, for how else could they observe that same commandment? I don't know if they have their own set text or body of laws for that, but whatever it is they do, it comes from their own oral tradition. Hence, they are not Jews. When did that break happen, exactly? When did the lineage of the Jews who followed karaism (karaism?) cease to be Jews? I don't know, but I'm sure some smart person out there does. But a Karaite today is not a Jew.

Christians have their own interpretation of the Torah (and other biblical works, of course), too. I don't know the whole of it but a good start is the New Testament. This way you can have Matthew discuss the passage in Isaiah, for example, and give it a meaning that gives resonance to Christianity. For example, the Hebrew term "almanah" in Isaiah 9:14 (I think) that gets translated to "virgin" does not mean, well, virgin, in biblical or modern Hebrew - but that is so well known that surely there is a logical response to that point as well. I don't think the purpose of this comments section is to get into the whole verse-citing back-and-forth.

It's never been my understanding that Christianity makes room for any other belief system. This is not to say that forced conversion is or should be the norm, only that theologically there's only one thing going on. You could say the same for Judaism, in a way - that is, we believe what we believe and that other religions are wrong on certain theological points - arrival and nature of the messiah, end days, etc. But we don't pray or feel that everyone should become Jewish. What we pray for is that all humankind will accept the notion of one true God and worship him. (We also have the Noachide laws as discussed above which we'd like everyone to follow - so if you don't mind, could you snap to it?)

Since I brought it up, I thought it pertinent to mention an idea about the messiah in Jewish thought. This is intensely complicated, and no one less than Maimonides says we shouldn't dwell on the details, and just believe that he will come (and then I think goes on to dwell on the details for a while). But just to highlight a major difference: We don't believe that the messiah will be godlike, or eternal, or what-have-you. He will be a man who will die like any other. But he will be a great man, possibly a prophet, who will be a king (messiah - from the Hebrew moshiach - means anointed. Hebrew kings were anointed with oil when they became king) that will defeat the enemies of Israel and unite the world in worship of God. Other wacky stuff will happen, the details of which are speculated upon in the Talmud and elsewhere. Just food for thought.

Some more targeted responses:

YS: Judaism also says that prophecy has ceased, at least for the time being. Why, I'm not sure exactly, but I'd place my bet on God's distancing Himself from the world after the fall of the 2nd Temple. A wannabe prophet's words are tested, as described in the Talmud in tractate Sanhedrin - so we got that in Judaism, too.

Walrus: What can I say? You have a very good point about the fact that Christians don't follow certain laws doesn't make them "completely different from modern Jews." It's the believing in Jesus thing that is the final separation, though. As for the sacrifices, that indeed stopped when the 2nd temple was destroyed. The sacrifices are now symbolically done through a.) prayer and b.) reciting the biblical verses about the sacrifices. When the 3rd Temple is built (may it happen speedily, in our days), the sacrifices will be re-instituted. That will be kinda yucky, but I'll do it if I have to (actually, as a non-priestly descendant of Levi, I won't have to do it - just sing a bit and clean some priests' feet, but that's another story).

"...if they're trying to cloak themselves in the Old Testament ritual, they've missed the point of the New Testament and might want to re-read their Bible." - Another great point. As far as the ethnic Jews who believe in Jesus wanting their community, fair enough. But it is a separate community from the Jewish community itself. And, again, a great point about spreading the Gospel. I also don't believe they should be asked to stop. On a related note, there's an anecdote that I think is recounted in Roger Kamenetz's The Jew in the Lotus where, at a meeting between Jewish leaders and the Dalai Lama, a rabbi asked the Lama (the Dalai?) if his eminence could encourage Jews who have become Hindus to go back to being Jews. The Dalai Lama said, in effect, it's your job to keep your own in the fold, to bring Judaism to Jews who at risk of converting out.

Re: sacrifices. There are certainly better explanations than this, but here goes: once the Temple was built, it became the chief place for sacrifices. There might have been an altar here and there at various times, but once the Temple was built it was clear that this was the place for sacrifices. It was pretty much forbidden anywhere else - there are intricate laws concerning penalties for offering sacrifices elsewhere. Second, sacrifices were not the only way to atone for sins in ancient Israel. I refer you to Golden Calf incident, where God gave Moses the ultimate tool for atonement - a simple spoken phrase that, when accompanied by sincere remorse (and compensation if another person was wronged), provided atonement. It begins with the tetragrammaton recited twice. Lastly, there were many types of sacrifice (thanksgiving, for example), not just those for sin, which also ceased. It doesn't mean no longer can give thanks.

Props to Dilbert and Shira who said a lot what I have said here, but better. I should edit this now that I've read their comments but I won't because a.) I'm lazy and b.) I'm egocentric and would like you to read all of my ramblings.

Kiwi - I won't beat around the bush. Yes, the karaites are batty.

Eaglewood - Shira pointed to the phrase in the law about "a place where I will show you." Whether or not the book of Deuteronomy was hidden, that works for me. In any case, it is clear in the oral law, which I discussed above. Again, sacrifices were not only about redemption from sin so the idea of Jesus making the ultimate sacrifice in that regard wouldn't cover the gamut there. It wasn't all about "justice." And even for sin-sacrifices, the mere animal sacrifice alone did not atone - it was a mere symbol of atonement, brought about by a sincere desire to change one's behavior, and followed-through with the actual changing of said behavior.

I am sorry I have not replied sooner. I have had t...

2006-02-20T16:00:00.000-06:00

I am sorry I have not replied sooner. I have had to go back and do a lot of research to make sure I am correct. Rather than try to put all the information here in a comment section I think I will let the following web site suffice. It is comprehensive and it does cover the fact that a virgin birth was necessary for the coming of the Messiah. If the idea of a begotten Son of G_d is foreign to Jewish tradition then why does the prophet Isaiah explicitly foretell it? A virgin birth would necessitate a miraculous conception. Just because it does not fit your word view does not mean that is the method G_d chose to use.

http://members.aol.com/claywatts/end1st.htm#birth\

Shira Salamone

You explained the reason the rabbis decided to forbid the sacrifices but that does not explain why under the Law they are no longer necessary. Now under Christian theology we can explain it in the G_d himself in His perfection died for us, and that sacrifice was more than enough to serve His justice. My understanding is that even in times of captivity the Jewish people practiced the sacrifices when they could even without a temple. I could be wrong as my knowledge of Jewish history is shaky at best.

Im not entirely sure whether the Karaites are stil...

2006-02-19T18:45:00.000-06:00

Im not entirely sure whether the Karaites are still considered Jews. That's a question that I'd best refer to the more learned. (Dilbert, are you there?) I would appreciate it if someone with a Jewish day school/yeshiva education would be so kind as to chime in.

Being Jewish is jointly and severally a race and a...

2006-02-19T15:58:00.000-06:00

Being Jewish is jointly and severally a race and a religion,

PT said above, referring to ethnic Jews who are Christians, "I call them Christians."

Kiwi, notice all the fun I've been having since you gave me tips for formatting bold and italics, not to mention creating hyperlinks,in comments? Thanks. :)

Glad to be of assistance. Feel free to ask any other techie questions. They call me 'geek' for a reason.

I think you forgot this, Shira:

So how do other Jews view the Karaites? Are they batty?

Kiwi asked: "Where might the Reed Sea be located?...

2006-02-19T00:05:00.000-06:00

Kiwi asked: "Where might the Reed Sea be located?"

In practice, the Reed Sea is what we call the Red Sea. In theory, there's some question as to whether what we now call the Red Story in English or Yam Suf, the Reed Sea, in Hebrew is actually where the Israelites crossed over into the Sinai Peninsula.

Kiwi, notice all the fun I've been having since you gave me tips for formatting bold and italics, not to mention creating hyperlinks,in comments? Thanks. :)